Discussion:
[GTALUG] good deal on netbook; war story: putting Fedora on it
D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk
2018-11-21 20:51:00 UTC
Permalink
I recently bought an Acer Spin 1 SP111-31-P95J refurbished netbook.
<https://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=710_374&item_id=117446>
So far, I quite like it.

Those are gone but a slightly inferior model is available for a better
price ($200):
<https://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=710_374&item_id=120108>

Why should you consider this:

+ nice size (11.6") and weight

+ FullHD (i.e. 1920x1080) IPS screen (IPS makes the display a lot
better). Some people think that this resolution is too high for
this size. I like it a lot. It's a matter of personal taste so
don't take my word for it. FullHD + IPS is quite rare on this class
of machine and even more rare at this price.

+ no fan!

+ folds almost 360 degrees (I don't care)

+ 4G RAM. That's twice what the cheapest netbooks have had. I find that
it makes a big difference in Firefox (at least the way I use it)

+ 64G eMMC (disk). That's twice what the cheapest netbooks have. It
should even be enough for a dual boot Win 10 / Linux system but it
isn't generous for dual-boot. It's plenty for Linux. eMMC is slower
than SATA of NVMe SSDs. Like most netbooks these days, the eMMC cannot
be upgraded.

- CPU is only a Celeron N3350 (dual core). That's good for electricity
consumption and cooling but not a powerhouse for computation.

+ the Battery last quite some time -- way more than 4 hours.

+ supports 802.11ac

+ it seems to have been refurbed by the manufacturer and has a full year
warranty. Mine sure looked as if it was never used. This model isn't
current so they might just have been store returns.

+ 1 x USB 3.0, 2 x USB 2.0

- no ethernet

================ War Story ================

Adventures installing Linux on this netbook (condensed version).

a) freshening up Windows and firmware

After first boot, I did all updates. This requires you toask several
times for updates since it will install a bunch and (incorrectly) say
your system is up to date. Don't believe it.

I updated the firmware too. This requires Windows, as far as I can
tell. You have to hunt for the update on the Acer site.

This whole process is excruciatingly slow and requires way too many
user interventions. Allocate a day to babysit it.

Don't bother with the Windows updates if you are just going to blow
Windows away. But I would do the firmware update in any case.


b) booting a live Fedora 29 installation medium

Note 1: this thing should be used as a modern UEFI system. I don't
even remember whether there is an option for legacy emulation (i.e. a CSM
and support for an MBR system disk).

Note 2: a number of useful settings in the firmware setup page are only
enabled if you set an administrator password (you set it in the
firmware setup page).

A Fedora live USB stick is made by downloading the .iso file and
dd-ing it onto the raw USB drive.

The Acer just will not boot such a stick. Apparently the same thing
happens with an Ubuntu installation disk. Linuxium (that's his nom de
guerre) has a tool that apparently doctors such a USB to be bootable.
He says that this is a generic Apolo Lake problem but I am skeptical.
I think that it is an Insyde Firmware bug.

My solution was to burn a DVD from the .iso and boot from that. I
could do this because I have an external DVD drive. Note: the image
is too large for a CD.


c) making room on the disk

When installing Linux on a Windows system to create a dual boot
system, you need a way to divide disk space.

- Windows needs at least 32G of disk; a nice Linux needs close to that
too.

- Windows comes with a tool that can shrink an NTFS parition.
Unfortunately it is unwilling to shrink down to 50% or less. I think
that is because certain metadata is smack dab in the middle of the
filesystem and is marked as unmovable.

- I use gparted to change NTFS partition sizes, especially when
Windows won't. It seems to damage the FS but if you immediately
reboot Windows after resizing, Windows will repair the damage.

This time, when I rebooted Windows after gparted-resizing, Windows
could not fix the NTFS partition. I gave up and blew Windows away.
After all, I wasn't really going to use it and the disk space would be
better used by Linux.

I should have made a re-installation disk before I resized the
partition, but I did not.


d) installing Linux

No problem.


e) booting the installed linux

I placed Linux ahead of Windows in the boot sequence. But the firmware
always altered it to put Windows first. Crazy. Especially when there is
no Windows (but I had left bits of it in the EFI System Partition
(/boot/efi)).

I could hit F5 on boot and specify booting Linux, but this is silly.

My crude fix was to rename the Microsoft directory on the EFI System
Partition to "Macrosoft", thereby hiding it from the bootloader.
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Howard Gibson via talk
2018-11-21 20:58:43 UTC
Permalink
Hugh,

I am documenting my Linux installs on my website. I have had some time on my hands recently, so I have tried installing stuff on my old 32-bit Lenovo Thinkpad.

http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson/Linux.html#NewUsers

Ubuntu and Fedora worked nicely in a beginner installation. We need to build a library of this stuff.

On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 15:51:00 -0500 (EST)
Post by D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk
I recently bought an Acer Spin 1 SP111-31-P95J refurbished netbook.
<https://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=710_374&item_id=117446>
So far, I quite like it.
Those are gone but a slightly inferior model is available for a better
<https://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=710_374&item_id=120108>
+ nice size (11.6") and weight
+ FullHD (i.e. 1920x1080) IPS screen (IPS makes the display a lot
better). Some people think that this resolution is too high for
this size. I like it a lot. It's a matter of personal taste so
don't take my word for it. FullHD + IPS is quite rare on this class
of machine and even more rare at this price.
+ no fan!
+ folds almost 360 degrees (I don't care)
+ 4G RAM. That's twice what the cheapest netbooks have had. I find that
it makes a big difference in Firefox (at least the way I use it)
+ 64G eMMC (disk). That's twice what the cheapest netbooks have. It
should even be enough for a dual boot Win 10 / Linux system but it
isn't generous for dual-boot. It's plenty for Linux. eMMC is slower
than SATA of NVMe SSDs. Like most netbooks these days, the eMMC cannot
be upgraded.
- CPU is only a Celeron N3350 (dual core). That's good for electricity
consumption and cooling but not a powerhouse for computation.
+ the Battery last quite some time -- way more than 4 hours.
+ supports 802.11ac
+ it seems to have been refurbed by the manufacturer and has a full year
warranty. Mine sure looked as if it was never used. This model isn't
current so they might just have been store returns.
+ 1 x USB 3.0, 2 x USB 2.0
- no ethernet
================ War Story ================
Adventures installing Linux on this netbook (condensed version).
a) freshening up Windows and firmware
After first boot, I did all updates. This requires you toask several
times for updates since it will install a bunch and (incorrectly) say
your system is up to date. Don't believe it.
I updated the firmware too. This requires Windows, as far as I can
tell. You have to hunt for the update on the Acer site.
This whole process is excruciatingly slow and requires way too many
user interventions. Allocate a day to babysit it.
Don't bother with the Windows updates if you are just going to blow
Windows away. But I would do the firmware update in any case.
b) booting a live Fedora 29 installation medium
Note 1: this thing should be used as a modern UEFI system. I don't
even remember whether there is an option for legacy emulation (i.e. a CSM
and support for an MBR system disk).
Note 2: a number of useful settings in the firmware setup page are only
enabled if you set an administrator password (you set it in the
firmware setup page).
A Fedora live USB stick is made by downloading the .iso file and
dd-ing it onto the raw USB drive.
The Acer just will not boot such a stick. Apparently the same thing
happens with an Ubuntu installation disk. Linuxium (that's his nom de
guerre) has a tool that apparently doctors such a USB to be bootable.
He says that this is a generic Apolo Lake problem but I am skeptical.
I think that it is an Insyde Firmware bug.
My solution was to burn a DVD from the .iso and boot from that. I
could do this because I have an external DVD drive. Note: the image
is too large for a CD.
c) making room on the disk
When installing Linux on a Windows system to create a dual boot
system, you need a way to divide disk space.
- Windows needs at least 32G of disk; a nice Linux needs close to that
too.
- Windows comes with a tool that can shrink an NTFS parition.
Unfortunately it is unwilling to shrink down to 50% or less. I think
that is because certain metadata is smack dab in the middle of the
filesystem and is marked as unmovable.
- I use gparted to change NTFS partition sizes, especially when
Windows won't. It seems to damage the FS but if you immediately
reboot Windows after resizing, Windows will repair the damage.
This time, when I rebooted Windows after gparted-resizing, Windows
could not fix the NTFS partition. I gave up and blew Windows away.
After all, I wasn't really going to use it and the disk space would be
better used by Linux.
I should have made a re-installation disk before I resized the
partition, but I did not.
d) installing Linux
No problem.
e) booting the installed linux
I placed Linux ahead of Windows in the boot sequence. But the firmware
always altered it to put Windows first. Crazy. Especially when there is
no Windows (but I had left bits of it in the EFI System Partition
(/boot/efi)).
I could hit F5 on boot and specify booting Linux, but this is silly.
My crude fix was to rename the Microsoft directory on the EFI System
Partition to "Macrosoft", thereby hiding it from the bootloader.
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http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
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William Park via talk
2018-11-22 03:53:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk
I recently bought an Acer Spin 1 SP111-31-P95J refurbished netbook.
<https://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=710_374&item_id=117446>
So far, I quite like it.
Those are gone but a slightly inferior model is available for a better
<https://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=710_374&item_id=120108>
Just curious... Where/how do you use these little computers? I mean,
$300 here, $200 there, $100 upgrade, $50 ram, $25 microSD, etc. they all
add up.

Right now, I'm looking for a real ThinkPad at $1000 range. I'm sure
others are also. So, if you know a deal, let us know. Yes, I check
Lenovo site everyday. :-)
--
William Park <***@yahoo.ca>
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D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk
2018-11-22 07:33:15 UTC
Permalink
| From: William Park via talk <***@gtalug.org>

| Just curious... Where/how do you use these little computers? I mean,
| $300 here, $200 there, $100 upgrade, $50 ram, $25 microSD, etc. they all
| add up.

(I'm typing this on the netbook, on a couch, in front of the TV.
That's a good use of a netbook.)

Normally it is cheaper to upgrade a notebook than to buy it with
generous resources. But it is critical to know what can be upgraded
before you buy it.

The only upgrade that can be done to the netbook I described is
replacing the 4G memory with an 8G memory (I think it has a single
slot). Currently it has enough ram so I'm not thinking of upgrading.

| Right now, I'm looking for a real ThinkPad at $1000 range. I'm sure
| others are also. So, if you know a deal, let us know. Yes, I check
| Lenovo site everyday. :-)

There are lots of OK deals. Thinkpads are quite expensive so I
haven't bought any in five or more years. Lenovo randomly has good
sales. And you can often get a little better deals by using their EPP
program.

I've been tempted by some older ThinkPads sold by Bauer Systems.

I have no idea which features you value. That makes a big difference.

redflagdeals.com has many users that find and post notebook deals.
Search the fora for "thinkpad" and you might get a useful lead.
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Christopher Browne via talk
2018-11-22 20:41:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Park via talk
Just curious... Where/how do you use these little computers? I mean,
$300 here, $200 there, $100 upgrade, $50 ram, $25 microSD, etc. they all
add up.
I have been carrying around a Chromebook running Linux-y bits via Crouton
for 3.5+ years now; it's coming towards the end of its lifespan, and only
cost me a bit past $200, with no extras adding up.

Quoting my own email from 2015-03-15 on this list...

"I'm liking my Samsung ARM-based Chromebook well enough; I'm running
Debian "in behind" via the Crouton layer, which has been working fine.
I'll bet that by the time I care for something more, there will be a
newer model with more storage, memory, and CPU than I presently have."

It's 2018, and the reason I'm looking for something newer mostly has to do
with the fact that such a cheap laptop has a fairly fragile case, so it's
beginning to age a bit ungracefully. That something newer has
greater capacity is fine.
--
When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the
question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk
2018-11-22 21:35:50 UTC
Permalink
| From: Christopher Browne via talk <***@gtalug.org>

| It's 2018, and the reason I'm looking for something newer mostly has to do
| with the fact that such a cheap laptop has a fairly fragile case

I find I treat my netbooks more roughly than I treat my ultrabook that
cost 5 or 7 times as much (I have two netbooks, thus the two factors).
Being able to treat it more rougly makes it more useful. Think: jeans
vs suit.

I'm fascinated by tacit differences like this.

Another example: I find fan noise disturbing (in proportion to its
volume) but also it adds to my tension about battery life. In the
electric car world, a similar phenomenon is called "range anxiety".
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Chris Tyler via talk
2018-11-22 22:28:00 UTC
Permalink
The current Chromebooks will run a Linux userspace sandboxed very nicely *right
out of the box, *neither crouton nor dev mode required. I have a Samsung
Chromebook Plus (gen 1, with the high-dpi screen -- watch out for gen 2
where they dropped to 1080 (and also regressed from ARM to Intel)) and the
LInux userspace (Debian) is fabulous -- full development toolchain
(including gdb etc), X window and wayland app support, and so on. The
environments are semi-integrated -- there's a separate directory in the
ChromeOS "Files" application that maps to $HOME in the sandbox/container,
but any graphical apps you install into the sandbox show up on the ChromeOS
main menu (e.g., LibreOffice, Gimp, Eschema, and so forth). Apparently
deeper integration is coming; releases in the pipeline include the ability
to do things like mount your Google Drive filesystem within the sandbox.

My wife has a Pixelbook (top-end Chromebook, gorgeous build with glass
trackpad etc - I gave her the nice machine this time ;-) and the Linux
userspace is supposed to work really well there, but I haven't tried it yet.

-Chris
Post by Christopher Browne via talk
Post by William Park via talk
Just curious... Where/how do you use these little computers? I mean,
$300 here, $200 there, $100 upgrade, $50 ram, $25 microSD, etc. they all
add up.
I have been carrying around a Chromebook running Linux-y bits via Crouton
for 3.5+ years now; it's coming towards the end of its lifespan, and only
cost me a bit past $200, with no extras adding up.
Quoting my own email from 2015-03-15 on this list...
"I'm liking my Samsung ARM-based Chromebook well enough; I'm running
Debian "in behind" via the Crouton layer, which has been working fine.
I'll bet that by the time I care for something more, there will be a
newer model with more storage, memory, and CPU than I presently have."
It's 2018, and the reason I'm looking for something newer mostly has to do
with the fact that such a cheap laptop has a fairly fragile case, so it's
beginning to age a bit ungracefully. That something newer has
greater capacity is fine.
--
When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the
question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
---
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D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk
2018-11-22 23:06:08 UTC
Permalink
| From: Chris Tyler via talk <***@gtalug.org>

| I have a Samsung
| Chromebook Plus (gen 1, with the high-dpi screen -- watch out for gen 2
| where they dropped to 1080 (and also regressed from ARM to Intel))

I take it that your model is the XE513C24-K01US.

I was very impressed with how it worked for you during a presentation
at FSOSS last month. Somehow presentations bring out the worst in
computers but yours worked well.

The resolution seems to be 2400 x 1600 in 12.3". That's a nicer
aspect ratio than most notebooks.

The disk space seems a bit low for Linux (but generous for ChromeOS):
32G. I would guess that it is eMMC and not upgradable.

The price here seems quite high: $731.82 on amazon.ca.
walmart.com has it at US$499. Why are they still selling it if there
is now a V2?
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William Park via talk
2018-11-23 04:45:43 UTC
Permalink
Can you go into more detail about this "userspace Linux sandbox"?
--
Post by Chris Tyler via talk
The current Chromebooks will run a Linux userspace sandboxed very nicely *right
out of the box, *neither crouton nor dev mode required. I have a Samsung
Chromebook Plus (gen 1, with the high-dpi screen -- watch out for gen 2
where they dropped to 1080 (and also regressed from ARM to Intel)) and the
LInux userspace (Debian) is fabulous -- full development toolchain
(including gdb etc), X window and wayland app support, and so on. The
environments are semi-integrated -- there's a separate directory in the
ChromeOS "Files" application that maps to $HOME in the sandbox/container,
but any graphical apps you install into the sandbox show up on the ChromeOS
main menu (e.g., LibreOffice, Gimp, Eschema, and so forth). Apparently
deeper integration is coming; releases in the pipeline include the ability
to do things like mount your Google Drive filesystem within the sandbox.
My wife has a Pixelbook (top-end Chromebook, gorgeous build with glass
trackpad etc - I gave her the nice machine this time ;-) and the Linux
userspace is supposed to work really well there, but I haven't tried it yet.
-Chris
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William Park via talk
2018-11-23 05:01:30 UTC
Permalink
For me, similar start but different end. I bought HP Chromebook 11 G3
for about $200 also. I ran (still do) Kubuntu through Crouton/Dev mode.
Initially, I liked it. Then,
- the battery died. I bought a replacement, and it too died in 3
months.
- WiFi doesn't connect when coming out of "sleep" mode.
- I bought 64GB ultra fast Samsung microSD, to install and run
Kubuntu from the microSD.
- Right now, I have it always plugged in, which defeats the purpose
of Chromebook.

In the end, though, it turned out to be $400 lesson. That's why I'm not
too keen on these little toys, whose primary purpose is to clear out
inventories of old obsolete parts or to keep production lines going
until payback is reached.
--
Post by Christopher Browne via talk
Post by William Park via talk
Just curious... Where/how do you use these little computers? I mean,
$300 here, $200 there, $100 upgrade, $50 ram, $25 microSD, etc. they all
add up.
I have been carrying around a Chromebook running Linux-y bits via Crouton
for 3.5+ years now; it's coming towards the end of its lifespan, and only
cost me a bit past $200, with no extras adding up.
Quoting my own email from 2015-03-15 on this list...
"I'm liking my Samsung ARM-based Chromebook well enough; I'm running
Debian "in behind" via the Crouton layer, which has been working fine.
I'll bet that by the time I care for something more, there will be a
newer model with more storage, memory, and CPU than I presently have."
It's 2018, and the reason I'm looking for something newer mostly has to do
with the fact that such a cheap laptop has a fairly fragile case, so it's
beginning to age a bit ungracefully. That something newer has
greater capacity is fine.
--
When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the
question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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Lennart Sorensen via talk
2018-11-30 16:27:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Park via talk
Right now, I'm looking for a real ThinkPad at $1000 range. I'm sure
others are also. So, if you know a deal, let us know. Yes, I check
Lenovo site everyday. :-)
Well I think the current price on a T580 at $830 is pretty good.
That's for 8GB ram, 500GB HD (not SSD), 1920x1080 15.6" IPS panel and
i5-7200U (2.5GHz) CPU.
--
Len Sorensen
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D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk
2018-11-30 17:20:33 UTC
Permalink
| From: Lennart Sorensen via talk <***@gtalug.org>

| Well I think the current price on a T580 at $830 is pretty good.
| That's for 8GB ram, 500GB HD (not SSD), 1920x1080 15.6" IPS panel and
| i5-7200U (2.5GHz) CPU.

Looks good. Where is that? Is it ending today? (Not important to me
-- I don't actually need a new computer. But I'm interested.)

I assume (but don't know) that you could easily add an NVMe SSD to
this. Aftermarket SSDs are cheap and seem to be getting cheaper.

I kind of thought that T5n0 models would have n'th generation Intel
processors. I have noticed that there are exceptions, unfortunately.
The i5-8____ series are usually better than the i5-7___
series. Often twice as many cores.
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Lennart Sorensen via talk
2018-11-30 19:32:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk
Looks good. Where is that? Is it ending today? (Not important to me
-- I don't actually need a new computer. But I'm interested.)
Lenovo website.

For an extra $90 the 500G HD becomes a 512GB NVMe drive, and the keyboard
becomes backlit. That is the 20L9S14T00 model. Quite the deal (about
50% off regular price where as the one with the HD is about 33% off).
Post by D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk
I assume (but don't know) that you could easily add an NVMe SSD to
this. Aftermarket SSDs are cheap and seem to be getting cheaper.
I kind of thought that T5n0 models would have n'th generation Intel
processors. I have noticed that there are exceptions, unfortunately.
The i5-8____ series are usually better than the i5-7___
series. Often twice as many cores.
Yeah seems both 7th and 8th gen CPUs are used.
--
Len Sorensen
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